433 Sensors fail to update tellstick.net but ok on zwave box

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PetriK
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:45 am

433 Sensors fail to update tellstick.net but ok on zwave box

Post by PetriK »

EDIT - you can skip first messages, here is about how zwave and .net are different in their capability to update 433 sensor data:
http://forum.telldus.com/viewtopic.php? ... 524#p35790

......

I have some problems, maybe someone here could help ... ?

1) The update for temperature sensors stops occasionally even for hours. I installed a timer to reboot tellstick.net once in a day and its better now but still get some delays. This happens to almost any sensor, regardless if it is 3 meters or 20 meters away. Like right now same Proove sensor is reporting outdoor temperature but has failed to report indoor temperature for three hours ?

2) I seem to be getting a some fineoffset ghost sensors which appear reporting numbers which are way out of any sensor value.

3) Another odd thing is that at least on mobile app I can have an updated value visible for a while but when force to update by scrolling the screen down it disappears and old value becomes visible.

I have 10 433Mhz transmitters out of which 8 are proove temperature sensors and 2 are using oregon protocol.Oregon sensors are transmitting every 36 seconds. This is my summerhouse which is in a middle of nowhere - nearest neighbour is hundreds of meters away so its not radio interference. E.g. the fineoffset ghost sensors appear with numbers that are really out of this world. As fineoffset has checksum it can not be anything else than either one of the proove sensors or a fault in the tellstick net or live.telldus.com service.

When mailing to customer service they just forgot to answer to my latest message after I told that rebooting helps even it does not take the fault completely away ...
Last edited by PetriK on Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
etompau
Posts: 2405
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:45 am
Location: Skåne

Re: Temperatures fail to update for hours - tellstick.net

Post by etompau »

There are numerous threads in the forum related to problem with sensor updates and how to improve the reception, have you read through these?
What's the history of your system - has the setup been working (how long?) or has it never worked reliable with your 10 sensors?

The signals form the sensors are very weak, and are easily attenuated. Also the RF output from the sensors could vary between different sensors, as we are talking about low cost electronic equipment.
Test the sensor close the the Tellstick, if you get a reliable update, then move the sensor away a few meter at the time, and verify correct reception. If the sensor doesn't work at the intended position, you will have to start an adjustment procedure, adjusting the antenna position of the Net, testing an external antenna on hte Net, and perhaps connecting an external wire antenna to the sensor.

I have never seen problem with unreliable sensor updates related to a "lock up" of the Tellstick Net and then fixed by a restart.

The sensor values are instantaneously pushed to the app/Live, but the values are stored with a delay in the Telldus server system, when you refresh the sensor page in the app, you will fetch the stored and delayed value. The next incoming sensor update is then pushed to the app/Live.
PetriK
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:45 am

Re: Temperatures fail to update for hours - tellstick.net

Post by PetriK »

Thanks for a reply - I don't really believe this being an issue with having receiving issues due to RF signal being too weak.

Look at the picture here. Sensor 2 has indoor and outdoor sensors (now both indoor). The other is updating regularly. Additionally look at sensor 6, that has not updated for hours where as sensor 1 being in equal distance is updating just fine and its way less than sensor 2 which is 20m away.

I also get numerous ghost sensors, ie. sensors without real transmitter. Assuming that fineoffset is implemented as it should be with crc those should not appear.

My assumption is that there is something odd how different protocols are detected putting e.g. Oregon protocol into fineoffset frame even though length is different and definitely CRC will not be correct in that case. For Oregon sensors I don't have that problem at all.

Or is there something wrong in my thinking ? ???

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tronde
Posts: 625
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:45 am

Re: Temperatures fail to update for hours - tellstick.net

Post by tronde »

PetriK wrote:This is my summerhouse which is in a middle of nowhere - nearest neighbour is hundreds of meters away so its not radio interference.
If a sensor has a low battery voltage, it can make a lot of radio interference. I have experienced it several times myself. Result: complete loss of almost all sensors.

My case, in Norwegian:
http://forum.telldus.com/viewtopic.php? ... B8y#p34010
PetriK
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:45 am

Re: Temperatures fail to update for hours - tellstick.net

Post by PetriK »

Tak - jeg ska bytte batterier. Sorry, kan nog förstå Norsk men att skriva det är ett annan sak.

Anyhow you wrote that you had one with LED constantly on. That's not case of mine. My bathroom one which has not sent for hours is now the closes to the receiver. Also another one in one of the bedrooms has been quiet for 30min now. There may be more into this somewhere... but certainly an idea to browse forward.

Interesting USB TV stick application - have heard but never have had time to figure out what combo works. I will try to buy one.
tronde
Posts: 625
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:45 am

Re: Temperatures fail to update for hours - tellstick.net

Post by tronde »

I have had other thermometers of the same brand making a lot of RF noise without having the LED lit, so "no LED" can't be used as proof of function. I have a lot of the Clas Ohlson 36-1797 fitted with a new transmitter, and have deliberately let them run out of power so I can se for how long time they are OK after a low battery warning. Most of them are OK for about 1.5 years after warning, and it takes about 3 - 3.5 years before the warning. All kind of cheap 433MHz equipment are known to make noise when they run low of power. It's not considered a big problem because of very limited transmitting power.
PetriK
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:45 am

Re: Temperatures fail to update for hours - tellstick.net

Post by PetriK »

Thanks for this hint !!! All my thermometers are from Proove - thought that those would work best with telldus as its part of the same group of companies.

You made me think that when I moved the sensor that was not transmitting anything and at the same time another sensor closest to this one stopped updating. Also the one that did not transmit properly earlier was at the same direction as this one that I started to suspect. In my case it was not low batteries, still 1,49V on both battery. Anyhow taking the batteries out seemed to reset this unit. If I have more issues will definitely look for the ClasOhlsson thermometes which you hinted.

Also ordered the USB TV stick (actually couple of those) to be able to better monitor if the assumed blocking starts again.
PetriK
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:45 am

433 Sensors fail to update tellstick.net but ok on zwave box

Post by PetriK »

Oh no - there is more to this than just noise. I bought the new tellstick zwave ver 2 which can send and receive both zwave and 433 MHz - just to try it out. I have been running those now parallel for a day and it looks like the updating capability of zwave unit is far superior. Like you can see the sensor 7 which is only 2 meters away from both units has not been updating on tellstick.net for 6 hours where as the zwave does read it perfectly. The same goes with the sensor 8 too but less difference.

I am really wondering whats so different between the boxes ? Looks like the sensor radio issues may not be only because of background noise at 433Mhz or because of faulty sensors ?

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tronde
Posts: 625
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:45 am

Re: 433 Sensors fail to update tellstick.net but ok on zwave

Post by tronde »

What about the antenna contact on the Net? Does it feel firmly affixed to the unit, or can you feel some slight movement? Long time ago I managed to break the ground (shield) connection between the contact and the circuit board when I thightened the nut on the contact. You can open the Net if you remove the four rubber feets covering the screws.

If you go for the Clas Ohlson thermometer, you will most likely need to change the transmitter. Its easy and cost about 1 USD. I have modified 24 pcs.

http://forum.telldus.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2064
PetriK
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:45 am

Re: 433 Sensors fail to update tellstick.net but ok on zwave

Post by PetriK »

No - its not really antenna problem as all other sensors are updating.

Tellstick net just so that it drops a sensor now and then... See e.g. the picture below. All other sensors are updating within a couple of minutes to each other but the one in livingroom has not updated tellstick net for a day where as the same sensor is updating tellstick znet v2 normally. This sensor is 3 meters away from tellstick net and tellstick znet v2 and both units are within 30cm to each other. I can see the same on both my iphone app as well as on web page.

This must be a fault in tellstick net firmware and I am very surprised that no-one has found this problem earlier. There has been a lot of talk about sensor problems but I guess I am the first one running znet version in parallel to tellstick net confirming that the issue is in tellstick net or maybe even in the server side ? :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

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tronde
Posts: 625
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:45 am

Re: 433 Sensors fail to update tellstick.net but ok on zwave

Post by tronde »

I understand that these thermometers code the transmission with manchester code. It rely on pulses with a defined long and short pulse time. I have been playing a little with different remote controls using manchester, and I can see that they are rather lax on timing. You can program a receiver to accept a "time-range" for long and short pulse time to compensate for this, but if the pulse time is outside of this window it's not recognised as a valid pulse.

A guess is that some of your thermometers are "on the edge" with timing. Can you see a pattern related to temperature? Is it possible for you to cool and / or heat both the OK and failing thermometers to see if they behave different?

It is correct that poor reception is an issue. Most of it seems to be related to the Clas Ohlson thermometers. Since all of mine works OK with a new transmitter, the problem with them is not related to timing.

Edit:
It is also possible that the radio frequency is "on the edge".
PetriK
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:45 am

Re: 433 Sensors fail to update tellstick.net but ok on zwave

Post by PetriK »

Finally got the SDR software up and running. This revealed something interesting about the proove temperature sensor, the transmit frequency is all over the place as you can see below. I tested the battery and it measured 1.5V for both so this really is the unit itself - below also the signal when the led lit up a few seconds after connecting the batteries.

So the first image shows how frequency is all over the place, also the signal strenght is weaker than from sensors much further away. I tested two proove sensors and both produced similar output. Now when starting to think when does a sensor fail according to live.telldus.net its at least in my case almost always the sensor which is closest or a couple of closest ones to tellstick.net. Based on this logic - the cure may be simply to remove the antenna ? Needs to be tested at some point when I have more time...

Another thing is the frequency itself - tellstick.net transmits around 433.987Mhz and telldus remote at 433.900Mhz where as proove sensors seem to be transmitting at around 433.875-433.925Mhz varying a bit depending on a sensor. Not sure why tellstick.net is so much off ? Well I have not calibrated my SDR yet so these may have some base bias but numbers are correct in relation to each other.

Here an image of proove sensor transmitting with frequency all over the place:
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Here an image of proove sensor transmitting when turned on, this is normal behaviour for several sensors. Propably an issue if battery voltage gets too low:
Image

Here normal transmission from tellstick.net as a reference (see dark dots, bigger ones is tellstick.net and the one row with several dots is proove sensor):
Image
tronde
Posts: 625
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:45 am

Re: 433 Sensors fail to update tellstick.net but ok on zwave

Post by tronde »

These cheap transmitters seems to be rather lax on frequency.

My Tellstick Net is about 434.040. Nexa LMT-711 bell transmitter is 434.018. Nexa NEYCT-705 is 433.95.
The powerful (and wide spectrum) sending three bursts every 36 second is a cheap Chinese transmitter fed from 5V. The rest is all kind of sensors.

If you tweak the settings for range and contrast, it is more easy to distinguish the transmitters from background noise.

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PetriK
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:45 am

Re: 433 Sensors fail to update tellstick.net but ok on zwave

Post by PetriK »

Same observation here - and it looks like that also tellstick net is somewhat arbitrary in what frequency it has when transmitting.

My observation now supports that tellstick.net center frequency (can only measure transmit) determines the sensor frequency range. Two tellstick.net units with similar antennas located 5 cm from each other. The tellstick.net unit having higher transmit frequency can not receive sensors with lowest transmit frequency located furthest.

The two tellstick.net unit center of trasmit frequencies are 433.980.000 and 433.985.000 where as the Proove sensor frequencies are the following:
433880 T2
433876 T3
433878 T4
433908 T5
433937 T8

Now this tellstick.net which has center of transmit frequency at 433.985.000 it can not receive sensors having transmit frequencies 433.880.000 and 433.876.000 which are some 10 meters away behind a two or more brick walls. On the other hand it can receive sensor with 433.878.000 transmit frequency as that sensor is only 5 meters away and behind one brick wall. The other tellstick.net with transmit frequency of 433.980.000 can pick up all sensors.

Anyhow it does bother me if for such a narrow signal the center of tellstick.net is so much further away from sensors and transmitters I tested are in the range 433850000-433950000Mhz?
tronde
Posts: 625
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2023 9:45 am

Re: 433 Sensors fail to update tellstick.net but ok on zwave

Post by tronde »

Ineresting findings. I guess .net uses the same filter for the transmitter and receiver, but only Telldus can tell. If you look at my last image, you can se that some sensors transmitt over a wide frequency spectrum (the horisontal line is wide) while others are narrow. What about yours?
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